A conversation with Antonio Nobre, Brazilian agronomist by training and world’s leading Earth scientist, serving as the scientific director of the Biotic Pump Greening Group. He has dedicated his career to studying the Amazon’s ecological dynamics and its crucial role in climate regulation and is an expert on water cycles, native Indigenous knowledge, and much more.
We talk about how Antonio found his way to the Amazon after being born and raised in São Paulo, how he rebelled against the Green Revolution during his time at agricultural university, and how he discovered the incredible workings of forests—especially rainforests. We delve into their magic: how they thrive on practically barren soils and flourish against all odds. We also explore the overview effect—the transformative experience of seeing Earth from space—and how it often turns astronauts into environmental activists.
FIRST PART OF THE CONVERSATION
SECOND PART OF THE CONVERSATION
In the second part of our conversation, we explore Antonio’s ideas on how to invest $1 billion—and yes, it involves nature unicorns. We’ll dive deep into water cycles, the biotic pump, and why combining biotic pump knowledge with syntropic agroforestry is a match made in heaven. There’s so much more, including the latest advancements in genome research.
LISTEN TO THE CONVERSATION ON:
THE OVERVIEW EFFECT IS CRUCIAL TO GET PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND AND TAKE THIS EARTH SERIOUSLY
Antonio discusses the “overview effect”, the profound sense of wonder and environmental activism experienced by astronauts viewing Earth from space. He emphasises the importance of more people, including those in power, experiencing the overview effect to foster environmental stewardship.
”Most of them, most of those humans, 600 humans, who ever left Earth… And I think like 24 who reached the moon and looked back at Earth, and they are instantly converted. Instantly they become people who have the sense of wonder. They look back to this shimmering blue, green, emerald ball, bright, shining, and hanging in nothing, hanging in the blackness, desert of space, and they know, of course, how harsh space is, and they know, because if they are not wearing their space suit, they are dead in less than a minute.” Antonio Nobre
”I would love to go to space, and I wish 8 billion humans could go to space, because then we would have solved all the problems like we do when actual astronauts go to space and undergo the overview effect, come back to Earth, and become activists. Most of them become activists and basically, they say, we have to protect Earth.” Antonio Nobre
THE MAIN WEALTH OF A FOREST IS ABOVE GROUND
Antonio Nobre’s research revealed that the Amazon’s forests thrive on surprising foundations, including sand dunes resembling those of the Sahara, emphasising the forest’s wealth above ground.
”The conclusion of my master’s dissertation was that the main wealth of the forest was above ground, confirming what this professor had told me earlier, that forests in the Amazon, for the most part, are just mechanical support and a store of water. And along with many expeditions I made, later I was in charge of the soils lab in the institute where I was hired as a researcher. We found, for example, in the northwestern part of the Amazon, near the borders of Venezuela, Colombia, and Brazil, we found the sand dunes under the forest. I remember this struck me because I thought sand dunes in a rain forest, sand dunes that had the same shape as you find in the Sahara or in Saudi Arabia […] and then a forest on top of it wasn’t just the sand dunes; it was sand dunes under the forest.” Antonio Nobre
TREES ARE BASICALLY SUSPENDED OCEANS
Trees, younger than sharks, evolved over 500 million years from migrating cyanobacteria, transforming barren land into a “suspended ocean” of life.
”Before 500 million years ago, there were no trees. So, sharks are older than trees. You had life, lots of thriving life in the oceans, but the lands were barren. And then over a course of 400-500 million years, the cyanobacteria that thrived in the oceans started migrating inland, and you started getting first aquatic plants, then mosses, then pitter redox, and then etc., until you got trees. Trees are basically an array of cyanobacteria, suspended like a suspended ocean.” Antonio Nobre
”The green stuff in any living plant is basically a collection of chloroplasts. Chloroplasts are incredibly sophisticated and evolved organelles, or organs of cells, plant cells, that are able to do magic, a chemical magic. What is the magic? Using nothing but light and water, it can get inert substance carbon dioxide, CO2, and combine it with glue taken from water hydrogen, and it glues CO2 and six. CO2, glued together, produces one molecule of sugar. That’s the magic: you go from an inorganic substance, carbon dioxide, using water and light, and you produce sugar as a fantastic machine. It’s like you have the fantastic Chocolate Factory. You have the fantastic machine of photosynthesis in nature. And this was invented by this unicellular bacterium called cyanobacteria.” Antonio Nobre
MONEY IS LIKE FIREWORKS
Antonio compares money to fireworks, emphasising its potential for constructive use or wasteful display.
”I used to think of money as something like having fireworks. If you use fireworks. […] you can use money as a store of energy, like powder, like TNT gunpowder, and you can apply it to constructive things. Or you can just blow it in the air, or you can blow on your face, or you can do anything.” Antonio Nobre
IF NATURE WERE A BANK, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED ALREADY
Antonio calls for a shift in awareness and understanding to protect Earth’s ecosystems and ensure their long-term sustainability.
”There is this famous phrase that if nature were a bank, it would have been saved already. I just imagine, for example, one project going to the frontiers of the Amazon and convincing some of those guys running a sawmill to change and to produce, to become an industry and no longer a predatory sawmill. When a missile sent by the IDF, the Israeli force into Gaza, would pay for a large project of repurposing sawmills in the Amazon.” Antonio Nobre
FUND NATURAL UNICORNS
Antonio would fund “natural unicorns”, referring to creative innovators in regenerative agriculture. He believes that with $1 billion, which is a small amount today, we could stimulate the emergence of these projects, as there’s too much money and too few good projects.
”I would fund unicorns, natural unicorns. Unicorn is the term used for those folks who are creative, and they invent new software, new hardware, and new stuff, especially in the information age and information frontier. I would stimulate the emergence of unicorns in regenerative agriculture. Why? Because if I put 1 billion, 1 billion these days is really nothing. It’s a very small amount of money. Just think about how much money was spent in the Ukraine war in the last two years.” Antonio Nobre
”There’s too much money and too few good projects; this is because the people in economics are not aware of what is brewing in this so-called alternative agriculture, alternative ecology, etc.” Antonio Nobre
WE NEED TO GO FORWARD TO NATIVE KNOWLEDGE
Antonio calls for a shift in human behaviour to respect and protect the complexity of nature, drawing on both scientific knowledge and native wisdom.
”I go forward to native knowledge. For them it’s easy. They don’t have this angst, this anxiety about this complexity. They have reverence for the complexity of nature. They have respect; they worship the complexity of nature, because the complexity of nature is where you have the solution for existence and for life. And that’s not a religious discourse. It is a scientific discourse. I intend to be a scientific discourse. And you don’t have to be a wacko to believe in those things.” Antonio Nobre
I have been many times mentioning that we need to go forward to the native knowledge, because native knowledge has not lost the connection with Gaia, it has not lost the connection with the complexity of nature. And they have simple ways of fable, like fairy tales, ways of reporting on how you connect back to nature, how you connect and respect nature, and live in harmony.” Antonio Nobre
SYNTROPIC AGROFORESTRY, TOGETHER WITH OUR NEW SMALL WATER CYCLE, IS SUCH A JACKPOT
How do syntropic practices, which connect the water cycle, climate, and Earth systems, lead to exponential growth? Much like planting one corn seed that produces thousands upon harvest.
”I have collaborated with Ernst and, of course, with Felipe and Dayana, and we have been developing this proposal for putting together this incredible competence of knowledge, of life, together with how we fix the agricultural systems and connect with the water cycle. This is the thing that we bring from Anastasia. And we are connecting the water cycle, the climate, and the understanding of the earth system as a whole with the actual manipulation through the syntropic, and the thing about the syntropic agriculture, syntropic silviculture, syntropic timber management, or whatever you call it, is that whatever you do, invest there, it multiplies exponentially.” Antonio Nobre
”You put one seed of corn in the ground, and you have 1000s produced in the corn when you harvest; that’s true for nature. This exponential growth. It is an exponentially beneficial growth, not an exponential disease or destructive development.” Antonio Nobre
Below short 3D cloud animation of Australia desert repelling clouds – @ NASA
OTHER POINTS DISCUSSED
Koen and Antonio also talked about
- The role of technology and collaboration
- The limits of human intervention
LINKS:
- Denis Noble Oxford discussion with Richard Dwankings on selfish gene
- The unselfish gene | Denis Noble challenges Richard Dawkins
- Dawkins re-examined: Dawkins’ legacy
- The Biotic Pump Greening Group
- The Future Climate of Amazonia Report
- Rivers Above the Canopy Documentary
- 90-Year-Old ‘Captain Kirk’ Goes to Space For Real
- Loess Plateau John d Liu
- The Overview Effect
- Life in Syntropy – Ernst Goetch
LINKED INTERVIEWS:
- Felipe Pasini – Walking the land of Amadeco Syntropic Farm with a regenerative farmer
- Felipe Pasini – Trees bring water so when in doubt plant more trees and complexify
- Dayana Andrade, farmer at Amadeco and author of Life in Syntropy
- Anastassia Makarieva – Healthy forests invest their capital to create their own rain
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The above references an opinion and is for information and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be investment advice. Seek a duly licensed professional for investment advice.