A conversation with Marco Carbonara, cofounder, owner and farmer at Pulicaro Farm, in Lazio, Italy. A special early morning walk through permanent pasture surrounded by multispecies graziers (donkeys, cows, sheep, goats, chickens, rabbits, turkeys and, of course, some guard dogs, which means a lot of pleasant and present background sounds. We are in the hills between Rome and Florence and have the great pleasure to visit the farm of Marco and Chiara. Marco takes us on the morning walk to feel, smell, and see regeneration of permanent pastures in a Mediterranean landscape. Definitely not easy, but definitely possible, and yes, also profitable.
LISTEN TO THE CONVERSATION ON:
How did Marco, who had no farming experience 20 years ago, approach regeneration back then, and how does he approach it now? When they take on new lands, what are the first steps, and how much has he learned over the last 20 years? What is the role of animals in regenerating the Mediterranean landscape, and how does he handle the challenging balance between running a company, needing to break even, and wanting to regenerate as quickly as possible?
We also discuss the challenge of feed: is it okay to bring feed for the non-ruminants in your rotation from outside the farm when your soils can’t yet sustain needy plants like wheat, barley, etc.? And if it is, how do you deal with the challenge of potentially competing for human food? We only scratched the surface because it’s impossible to capture 20years of deep regeneration in just one hour, but we tried and we hope you enjoyed listening to it as much as we did recording it.
THE ROLE OF ANIMALS IN REGENERATION
Marco emphasizes the importance of observing the land and using bioindicators to decide which animals to introduce for regeneration. Over 20 years, they have increased the number and diversity of animals on the farm, expanding from 3 hectares to almost 100 hectares.
”What changed in 20 years is that we increased a lot the number and the diversity of the animals that we expanded the farm from the original three hectars to almost 100”. Marco Carbonara
”For example, we try to use every single animal for a purpose. We have also donkeys. That’s for donkeys. We don’t sell meat; we don’t sell anything. They are donkeys that we mostly use for regenerating processes because they are animals that will eat just the things that cows, goats and sheep don’t eat.” Marco Carbonara
”There are herbivores and omnivores. Omnivores are very useful because you can feed them on pastures, even if the pasture is not feeding enough. And pigs, for example, have a very specific action on the soil that is disturbing the surface that is very delicate, but if you use them properly, they are amazing at the early stages of regeneration. Then when the regeneration is, let’s say, again, more far in the process, cows are excellent.” Marco Carbonara
WHAT 15 YEARS OF REGENERATIVE GRAZING HAVE TAUGHT MARCO
Marco and Chiara started with no farming experience and initially used chemicals and organic fertilizers and made mistakes in understanding the right combination for regeneration.
”After 15 years, 20 in the farm and 15 in regenerative agriculture, I feel that there is a long path in front of us still, but I think that now I know how to navigate. I really feel that my actions give me the result that more or less I expected. The things I can really see more now are in the global half of the ecosystems, on the resilience of the ecosystems, just for making a very silly example. But even the dogs now don’t need pet insecticides anymore. It’s very rare that a dog fleas or ticks ’cause rotating birds, rotating other animals, adding wild birds, and so on. Wild eat them; basically, yes, keep the things under control.” Marco Carbonara
WHY AND HOW MARCO IS USING DIFFERENT SPECIES TO REGENERATE HIS SOILS
Marco highlights the importance of having a regenerated environment for the animals to thrive and produce effectively.
”The most important thing for me is noticing, is trying to make a big picture. I don’t take so many notes of single stuff, but I try to look at bioindicators sometimes of plants, of soils, of water, and I try to imagine which animal can be introduced in this new plot that will have the best effect on the soil and, at the same time, will be enough productive on that plot, because this is something that people forget quite usually, that when you start a regeneration of the soil, the animals are useful, but at the same time, they should need a regenerated or re-regenerated environment so they will suffer on a place that is not fully regenerated.” Marco Carbonara
”On this specific situation, probably I will use as first some goats, okay, then I will introduce some sheep. Then I will introduce, probably some birds. Then probably I will remove the goats, and I will add, after a couple of years of birds, I will add the cow.” Marco Carbonara
THE DIFFICULT BALANCE BETWEEN BRINGING IN FEED FROM OUTSIDE THE FARM IF THE SOILS CAN’T SUSTAIN NEEDY CROPS LIKE WHEAT YET
Marco discusses the challenges of balancing the need for cereals to feed animals with the goal of regenerating the soil.
”Most of the land we use is for permanent grasslands. You also have to consider that we have more or less 40 hectares that are forest and woods, and we decided to buy the cereals and legumes we need from the same neighbours. We try to buy not far more than 30 kilometres, more or less 40 kilometres. We buy mostly from Tuscany. Few people in Tuscany, people that surround here and are very close. Because honestly, this is my personal point of view, but I think it’s something quite important. A lot of people think that you can start the regeneration process while at the same time producing cereals. I think this is false, because it’s extremely difficult. The cereals are needy crops. So, I will produce cereals, but when I can reach a certain amount of organic matter, speed of dynamics into the soil, and so on.” Marco Carbonara
WHAT MINDSET SHIFT IS NEEDED FROM INVESTORS TO START TO INVEST IN REGENERATION
Marco emphasises the need to prove that regenerative agriculture can produce food safely, economically, and soundly and to change the mindset of food production.
”I would like to show that we can feed the world properly, safely, and also, let’s say, economically sound. We must be available to change our mindset. If we’re approaching the food production of the world like we approach a new startup that sells sneakers. This is a different game; it should have different rules. It should be different. So, this is the point, probably. I would like to scale regenerative agriculture.” Marco Carbonara
”The main message should be, if you don’t really think that we should move to Mars, we should start speaking together. We should start taking all the good that is in saying the classical companies in terms of knowledge, scientific approach, money, communication, everything, and start speaking with the other side, with people really proving that another way is possible and is productive. So honestly, I would just like to ask them to come and stay for a week…” Marco Carbonara
OTHER POINTS DISCUSSED
Koen and Marco also talked about:
- Balancing production and regeneration
- The role of microbiota in regeneration
- Future vision and scaling regenerative agriculture
LINKS:
LINKED INTERVIEWS:
- Fred Provenza – What should we learn from domesticated animals when it comes to food as medicine
- Chris Henggeler – Standing on the shoulders of giants (Savory, Ingham, Provenza) and managing over 77000 hectares in remote Australia
- Nicolette Hahn Niman – Eating less and better meat is not the solution
- Clare Hill and Annie Rayner – The counter-narrative to industrialised chicken: what does it mean to produce deeply regenerative chicken and eggs?
- Reginaldo Haslett-Marroquin – Why chickens are the perfect entry point to decolonize our food system
- Rodger Savory – Restore the water cycles and reverse desertification in California, regenerating 150.000 acres with 600.000 cows
- Paul Greive – How the biggest exit in regeneration led to millions of more chickens on pasture
- Russ Conser – Birds, beef, soil, science and regeneration
- Angus McIntosh – Going from Goldman’s trading desk to regen farming in South Africa
- Matt Chatfield – I’m too lazy to farm against nature
- Chris Newman on busting the single family farm myth and why indigenous collectives are the way to go
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The above references an opinion and is for information and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be investment advice. Seek a duly licensed professional for investment advice.